Пролетарии всех стран, соединяйтесь

From the English edition of the Manifesto of the Communist Party, 1888, edited by Friedrich Engels:

Working men of all countries, unite!

• 23 Сен 2008

• #6

Well, I gave the most common version of the slogan in American English usage, not the most literal translation of the Russian (might as well say "All countries' proletarians, unite your plural selves together").

Google stats for usage: "Workers of the world, unite!" - 94,700 hits "Working men of all countries, unite!" - 14,400 hits "Workers of all countries, unite!" - 8,890 hits "Proletarians of all countries, unite!" - 3,710 hits "Proletarians of the world, unite!" - 984 hits

• 23 Сен 2008

• #7

The "most cited" by Google is not the most common version in AmE. Google citations often favorize common beliefs (which are not necessarily true) or just promoted ads, and may represent numerous duplicates from the same source.

I would never rely on Google numbers or (ac)counts.

• 23 Сен 2008

• #8

You have not offered any alternative translation of the phrase, so I have no idea what evidence you would use to arrive at one.

I also checked the American Corpus, and of the above variants only "Workers of the world" has any references (9 of them). There simply were not enough data points to make it worth citing that search. I will concede that Google searches are to be taken with grains of salt, but it is the only set of available data large enough that it might be meaningful. Would you prefer that I simply invoke my authority as a native speaker of American English to tell you what is right and wrong?

I have made no claim for "truth." But if it is most "commonly believed" that "Workers of the World Unite" is how this slogan is rendered in English, is this not the equivalent of it being the most commonly used variant? And, yes, google contains advertisements, but a) if English is used in an advertisement, it is still being used and must be considered when assessing how common a given collocation is and b) how many products do you really think are advertised with the slogan "workers of the world unite"?

Kolan, what do you believe is the best way to translate this phrase into American English, and what is your evidence for your belief? If you provide these, then we can have a serious discussion about this.

• 23 Сен 2008

• #9

You have not offered any alternative translation of the phrase, so I have no idea what evidence you would use to arrive at one.

I also checked the American Corpus, and of the above variants only "Workers of the world" has any references (9 of them). There simply were not enough data points to make it worth citing that search. I will concede that Google searches are to be taken with grains of salt, but it is the only set of available data large enough that it might be meaningful. Would you prefer that I simply invoke my authority as a native speaker of American English to tell you what is right and wrong?

I have made no claim for "truth." But if it is most "commonly believed" that "Workers of the World Unite" is how this slogan is rendered in English, is this not the equivalent of it being the most commonly used variant? And, yes, google contains advertisements, but a) if English is used in an advertisement, it is still being used and must be considered when assessing how common a given collocation is and b) how many products do you really think are advertised with the slogan "workers of the world unite"?

Kolan, what do you believe is the best way to translate this phrase into American English, and what is your evidence for your belief? If you provide these, then we can have a serious discussion about this.

Well, no one's authority has any meaning in a serious discussion. The facts and conclusions must be verified based on objective tests. I tried to demonstrate clearly that a backward translation (which is a kind of objective test) based on a commonly accepted AmE phrase renders in Russian differently as compared to its proper meaning (and, as you can see in Maroseika's post, to Engels author's edition). Which is just wrong in the very important details, that's it, in spite of a common belief.

What could you conclude from the fact that in AmE Russians are still referred as "commies"?

• 23 Сен 2008

• #10

Kolan, I don't even know what you are arguing for or against!

Of course I interpreted your reverse translation as an attempt to give evidence that the translation "Workers of the World Unite" contains inaccuracies. This is why I responded by saying that, rather than trying to give the most accurate translation, I was trying to give the most common version of this slogan in current American English.

Rather than continue to make a coherent argument that the translation should strive for accuracy above precedent, or give an example of an acceptably accurate translation, you then disputed my assertion that "Workers of the World Unite" is the most common rendering of this slogan in AmE. I responded by continuing to argue in favor of this assertion.

In response to this, you are now arguing (in a circular fashion) that there are inaccuracies in the "common" English translation: "Workers of the World Unite!" I know this and have never tried to assert otherwise! If you believe these inaccuracies are crucial and cause the English to mean something fundamentally different from the Russian, it would have been useful information to include back in post 4 or as a clarification in post 6.

• 24 Сен 2008

• #11

Kolan, I don't even know what you are arguing for or against!

Of course I interpreted your reverse translation as an attempt to give evidence that the translation "Workers of the World Unite" contains inaccuracies. This is why I responded by saying that, rather than trying to give the most accurate translation, I was trying to give the most common version of this slogan in current American English.

Rather than continue to make a coherent argument that the translation should strive for accuracy above precedent, or give an example of an acceptably accurate translation, you then disputed my assertion that "Workers of the World Unite" is the most common rendering of this slogan in AmE. I responded by continuing to argue in favor of this assertion.

In response to this, you are now arguing (in a circular fashion) that there are inaccuracies in the "common" English translation: "Workers of the World Unite!" I know this and have never tried to assert otherwise! If you believe these inaccuracies are crucial and cause the English to mean something fundamentally different from the Russian, it would have been useful information to include back in post 4 or as a clarification in post 6.

The best place to discuss how much currency the word "commie" has and to whom it might actually be applied in AmE would probably be the English Only forum. I don't see how this alleged fact in any way relates to this thread.

OK, let's put it this way. "Workers of the World Unite!" is an American adoption of Engel's phrase rendered by the author in BrE of his time. This has nothing to do with the Russian "Пролетарии всех стран, соединяйтесь!", and, therefore, must be discussed in the English only forum.

Within our scope, the phrase in Russian, whether it is considered as a well-known slogan or independently, delivers a meaning which is somewhat different from that of AmE version, and, consequently, under straightforward logic assumptions, may lead a AmE native to incorrect conclusions about how Russian natives see the issue (similar to that of the "commies" example). This is what I am arguing for.

• 24 Сен 2008

• #12

• 24 Сен 2008

• #13

From the English edition of the Manifesto of the Communist Party, 1888, edited by Friedrich Engels:

Working men of all countries, unite!

There is one more, closer to German original:

"A variation ("Workers of all lands, unite!") is also inscribed on Marx's tombstone . The actual translation is more normally given as "Working men," or " Proletarians of all countries, unite!" (Proletarier aller Länder, vereinigt euch!)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers_of_the_world,_unite!

Припоминаются также дворники - "пролетарии умственного труда" по Ильфу и Петрову, и "дворники из всех пролетариев - наигнуснейшая мразь . " - по Булгакову.

Очень неплохо тема пролетариата (в плане отличия его от просто рабочего класса, working men/class) раскрыта в Вики в другом месте, которое в рамках лингвистического форума стоит процитировать полнее:

"Первое, буквальное значение: proletarius — «производящий потомство» (от лат. «proles» — «pro + alo» — «для + выращивать, воспитывать»): употреблялось так же для обозначения мужских половых органов — яичек . В российском простонародном понимании оно тоже имело такой смысл, например, насильственную пролетаризацию крестьян при большевиках народ выразил частушкой:

Всё колхозное - не наше, Милая товарочка, Всего нашего осталось Хуй, да яиц парочка.

В отличие от ругательного "мудак", выражающего пакостные свойства мерзавца, слово "пролетарий" имело пренебрежительно-уничижительный смысл (см. далее толкования В.Даля). " http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Пролетариат

• 24 Сен 2008

• #14

Normally I would say that the best (and most common) translation is Workers of the world, unite!, but I'm not sure what you mean by a "technical document", and I suppose some academic or technical documents could require a very literal translation of the phrase (such as Proletarians of all countries, unite!). However, none of the more literal variations carry anything like the emotional power of the short, alliterative Workers of the world, so if you can use Workers of the world, I recommend that you do.

Your English and your brain are both, as always, in fine working order! The different English translations shown in e.g. Post 6 do indeed have the same meaning. But they are not all equally common and they are definitely not all equally. beautiful, if that's the right word. They are not all of equal rhetorical quality. It is in this respect that Workers of the world, unite! is superior, and I would guess that's why it's become the classic slogan in English, despite being less literal than some of the other options.

• 24 Сен 2008

• #15

Хотя все теперь, вроде, знают, что такое junk food, тем не менее, всучить людям crispy kernels в яркой упаковке зачастую не составляет труда. Их по-прежнему охотно покупают.

Я не удивляюсь, как тонко сумели извратить лозунг Маркса оппортунисты из английских профсоюзов, заменив при переводе пролетариев на рабочих, а все страны - на весь мир. Now it sounds crispy, wow, everyone buys it. But this is another thing, far not the same, no matter how short and alliterative are the cookies.

Легко уяснить разницу между пролетариями и рабочими, почитав хотя бы то же "Собачье сердце", а вот для того, чтобы понять отличие "всех стран" от "всего мира", нужно вникнуть в историю Первого (который создавался с участием Маркса) и последующих Интернационалов.

За рамками обсуждения здесь остаётся вопрос, насколько правильной была сама идея Интернационалов (в конце концов, от неё пришлось отказаться в 1943 г. в преддверии вступления на территории стран Восточной Европы), подхваченная впоследствии троцкистами, но факт, что изначально лозунг Маркса призывал к преодолению разобщения существовавших рабочих организаций разных стран, что и отражено в словесной формулировке, которую мы разбираем.

Между прочим, в переводе на РЯ с исходного немецкого никакой игры слов допущено не было, нет и никаких других вариантов (типа тех на АЯ, что представлены в п.6). Правда, была попытка дополнить лозунг угнетёнными нациями, в качестве политического момента при освобождении Востока в 1920-х гг., но он в итоге оказался на руку только революционерам маоистского толка. Очевидно, что угнетённые нации сами по себе неоднородны классово, в них помимо своих угнетённых, есть и угнетающие (восточные феодалы, национальная буржуазия), соединяться с которыми пролетариям не следует. Лозунг моментально потерял свою чёткость и направленность.

В своё время наш преподаватель философии Т.В.Левада не уставала повторять: "Молодёжь, учите дефиниции!" И теперь я понимаю, насколько она была права.

• 24 Сен 2008

• #16

• 24 Сен 2008

• #17

• 24 Сен 2008

• #18

• 24 Сен 2008

• #19

Я подсказал, где искать ответ: в истории I Интернационала. Национальные организации рабочих существовали ещё до Манифеста, и они были организованными и сплочёнными. (Об этом, кстати, в Манифесте и написано.) Очередным шагом, по мнению Маркса, была бы координация деятельности и соединение усилий этих организаций в некое целое, так как победа над капитализмом мыслилась ему только сразу во всём мире. Соответственно, и лозунг Манифеста адресовался в первую очередь рабочим организациями отдельных стран.

Заметим, что переводчики, то ли от безыдейности, то ли от наивности, старались кто во что горазд. Куда там англичанам с их подставами workers и world, это были ещё цветочки (правда, из бурной поросли оппортунизма)! Например, вот что известно о первом издании Манифеста на шведском:

"In the first Swedish language translation of the Communist Manifesto, published in 1848 , the translator Pehr Götrek substituted the slogan for Folkets röst, Guds röst! (i.e. " Vox populi, vox Dei ", or "The Voice of the People is God's voice"). Later translations have, however, included the original slogan." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers_of_the_world,_unite

Но как-то я не могу себе представить, чтобы коммунисты на партсобраниях пели аллилуйю.

• 24 Сен 2008

• #20

Об этом я тоже говорил, упрёк несправедлив. Пролетарий - это, грубо говоря, тот, у кого яйца, а сверх того - ничего из собственности. О работе по найму ничего не сказано. Трансформация этого понятия шла в сторону расширения, но первоначального значения не отменила. Сейчас это понятие гораздо шире, чем просто рабочий, worker, working man, etc. Достаточно вспомнить хотя бы люмпен-пролетариат, пролетариат умственного труда (в прямом смысле). Все эти понятие сейчас устаревают на глазах и становятся чуть ли не анекдотическими.

Но, впрочем, заявленная топикстартером фраза - тоже анахронизм. Тем не менее, лингвистическая дискуссия не становится от этого менее полезной.

• 25 Сен 2008

• #21

Мне кажется, надо уже в каком-то отдельном топике обсуждать слово "пролетарий", и не смущать топикстартера. Он спрашивал совсем не о том. В этом лозунге нет никаких потаённых смыслов слова "пролетарий", и если кто-то его там видит, это частный случай.

• 25 Сен 2008

• #22

Normally I would say that the best (and most common) translation is Workers of the world, unite!, but I'm not sure what you mean by a "technical document", and I suppose some academic or technical documents could require a very literal translation of the phrase (such as Proletarians of all countries, unite!). However, none of the more literal variations carry anything like the emotional power of the short, alliterative Workers of the world, so if you can use Workers of the world, I recommend that you do.

. despite being less literal than some of the other options.

never mind. An average Canadian has hardly ever heard any kind of this slogan, as a result of ferocious and everlasting anti-commies propaganda. But if someone wants to know what does it mean indeed, then he or she wants better to look into the source, not staring at a short, alliterative AmE phrase existing on its own, even though said to be translated from the Manifesto.

I regret this miscommunication with you.

• 25 Сен 2008

• #23

Not to worry, always happy to debate in the same threads as you. Anyway, you made me think about something:

In my message to Triangle, I said I thought there was a difference between translations done for academic or technical purposes and those used in general or popular speech. I could have been more careful about making this same point in my message to Ptak, because you're right that in more formal contexts, even small distinctions among words can matter, and there is a distinction between (in particular) "worker" and "proletariat".

On the other hand, as far as I know, English-speakers who know the phrase Workers of the world, unite! would understand "workers" to be a particular type or class of worker (i.e., the proletariat), and more generally, would understand the phrase as a whole as a Marxist rallying cry. Therefore, in a general or popular context, I do think the different translations would be understood to mean the same thing.

Now the parts I don't agree with you about. eek Even in an academic context, I could never agree that just because English uses a literary rather than literal translation, it has somehow made junk food out of what is, in Russian (and German), a hearty meal. It's one thing to insist on the difference between "world" and "all countries" and between "workers" and "proletarians". It's another to suggest that the difference is so profound that using workers of the world guts the very substance of Marx's phrase, leaving only a candy-wrapper of pretty wording. I can't agree with that. Plus, although I agree that it's important to understand the origins of significant historical (and other) phrases, I definitely don't think that this means literal translations are always the best ones. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the best translations balance various dimensions of a piece of writing, of which the literal meaning is only one. I know where workers of the world comes from, and what the more literal translations would be, and I still like workers of the world more. So we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

• 25 Сен 2008

• #24

• 25 Сен 2008

• #25

• 25 Сен 2008

• #26

• 29 Сен 2008

• #27

Видимо, вы упускаете существо момента, когда всё это писалось. В результате кризисов пролетариата вдруг стало очень много. Во всех странах, про которые было известно, что в них сформировался пролетариат, существовали такие организации. Даже если Маркс слегка сузил понятие "aller Länder" ради краткости с пропагандистской целью, то несомненно, что написанное им в ту эпоху, было подчинено цели объединения национальных рабочих организаций тех стран, в которых такие организации существовали. Отдельно взятых пролетариев Маркс даже не рассматривает (не употребляет это слово в единственном числе) и обращаться к каждому индивидуально не может, так как, в рамках его теории, поодиночке пролетарии - никто, а вместе - сила, способная на борьбу с буржуазией. У Маркса это всегда массы и/или организации.

Но надо признать, что его основополагающий лозунг так и не реализовался. Иллюстрацией этому служат судьба всех марксистских Интернационалов и преобладание национальных интересов рабочих над классовыми (например, в истории Первой и Второй Мировых войн).

• 29 Сен 2008

• #28

Отнюдь. К моменту написания Манифеста (в котором пролетариат явно не определяется никак) Маркс определял пролетариат как полную утрату человека, возникшую из стремительного процесса разложения общества, главным образом из среднего сословия, ныне бесправного и нищего люда, которому ещё только предстоит стать рабочим.

". ряды пролетариата пополняются и стихийно возникающей беднотой и христианско-германским крепостным сословием." - вот, что пишет далее Маркс в К КРИТИКЕ ГЕГЕЛЕВСКОЙ ФИЛОСОФИИ ПРАВА (том 1 сочинений, 1844 г.) http://www.krotov.info/libr_min/m/maistr/marx.html Выход у пролетариата был только один - становиться по мере возможности рабочим классом, о чём, собственно, и писался Манифест.

• 29 Сен 2008

• #29

even small distinctions among words can matter, and there is a distinction between (in particular) "worker" and "proletariat".

On the other hand, as far as I know, English-speakers who know the phrase Workers of the world, unite! would understand "workers" to be a particular type or class of worker (i.e., the proletariat), and more generally, would understand the phrase as a whole as a Marxist rallying cry. Therefore, in a general or popular context, I do think the different translations would be understood to mean the same thing.

Now the parts I don't agree with you about. eek Even in an academic context, I could never agree that just because English uses a literary rather than literal translation, it has somehow made junk food out of what is, in Russian (and German), a hearty meal. It's one thing to insist on the difference between "world" and "all countries" and between "workers" and "proletarians". It's another to suggest that the difference is so profound that using workers of the world guts the very substance of Marx's phrase, leaving only a candy-wrapper of pretty wording. I can't agree with that. Plus, although I agree that it's important to understand the origins of significant historical (and other) phrases, I definitely don't think that this means literal translations are always the best ones. Sometimes they are, but sometimes the best translations balance various dimensions of a piece of writing, of which the literal meaning is only one. I know where workers of the world comes from, and what the more literal translations would be, and I still like workers of the world more. So we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

The literal and the most accurate translation of the definitions, which were given by Marx, are extremely important, since the original Marx theory is dogma. It's like the axioms of geometry - a little assumption creates a global difference. The notion of dogmatism is very important to consider when you are trying to parse what is written there. It was ridiculized later ad absurdum by the ideological successors of Marx - Lenin and, especially, Stalin, which created a totalitarian state, the only one type of state structure that can handle communist ideas in practice. Of course, the strategic policy of that state had to "oscillate" following the changes in political situation, but no one was allowed to shift from the main "line".

- Были ли у вас колебания относительно генеральной линии партии? - Колебался вместе с линией.

The "deviations" were prosecuted as crime and punished severely. That's a tragedy which affected several generations, not joke (like one below).

Three political prisoners on their plank beds in gulag camp. 1. - What was your crime? 2. - They asked which side I take sleeping with my wife. 1. - And you? 2. - I said, on the left. The judge sentenced me for 10 years in gulag for the left trend. 1. - They asked me the same question, and I said, on the right. The judge sentenced me for 10 years in gulag for the right trend. 3. - А я сказал - никак. Получил 10 лет за связь с кулаком и разбазаривание семенного фонда.

English-speakers, unfortunately, are inadvertently buying an opportunistic, distorted wording "Workers of the world. " as if it would be a genuine Marx.